Barry
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Post by Barry on Oct 4, 2015 12:00:03 GMT -6
So I sent the following to a few Xtian friends/pastors: Matt 1:1 "The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ...."
Later the writer draws your attention to 14 generations from Abraham to David , from David to the exile to Babylon... (Matt 1:17)
NOTE :it says this is the lineage via Joseph...Matt 1:16
These are three IMPORTANT points... this is Jesus lineage via his "father" Joseph via Joseph's fathers.... the writer then tries to create three sections of 14. Why ? The name David in Hebrew has a numeric value of 14 ,.. thus three times creates this trinity thing of Jesus being the Son of David,.. the messiah ....
Problems here being the 14 generations SKIPS certain grandfathers to create this scene... and adds four women..... little odd no and bad math..
The most CRUCIAL point being tho is the writer Matthew said this was the lineage via Joseph ! Very important....
Ok follow me now to the book of Luke...
Luke also addressed Jesus genealogy .....let's check that out...
Luke 3:23-38
"Jesus, when he began his ministry, was about thirty years of age, being the son (as was supposed) of Joseph, the son of Heli"
Once again we get Jesus lineage via his "supposed" father Joseph (the writer Luke wrote the "supposed" not me !),.. but take a few moments go open up your bible and read it, actually read it. The names DONT match up !! Try to do that 14 generation thing also...
Correct me , show me... but this doesn't add up !
(I'll post the responses I get. For example one pastor responded "there are plenty of studies on this topic on the internet, how one can view it wrong and right,..go search the net"... ok then...in other words you CAN'T respond to it. Another asked what was the big deal so what a little skewed,.. so what if a little skewed !? How can I trust anything they have to say after that if it's 'skewed' ?)
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Post by Sora on Oct 4, 2015 12:39:20 GMT -6
Jews do not believe that G-d “gets it wrong” or changes his mind. G-d made it clear to us that houses are carried down through the male line, much in the same way that the Y-chromosome is physically passed from father to son (and not to daughter). It’s unforgiving, there are no exceptions to the rule no matter how much an individual may wish it to be otherwise. Houses pass from father to son only.
When G-d said to count the males according to the houses of their fathers, he wasn’t joking, there would never be an exception to the rule. Not ever.
1 And the Lord spake unto Moses in the wilderness of Sinai, in the tabernacle of the congregation, on the first day of the second month, in the second year after they were come out of the land of Egypt, saying, 2 Take ye the sum of all the congregation of the children of Israel, after their families, by the house of their fathers, with the number of their names, every male by their polls; 3 From twenty years old and upward, all that are able to go forth to war in Israel: thou and Aaron shall number them by their armies. ….. 17 And Moses and Aaron took these men which are expressed by their names: 18 And they assembled all the congregation together on the first day of the second month, and they declared their pedigrees after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, by their polls. 19 As the Lord commanded Moses, so he numbered them in the wilderness of Sinai. 20 And the children of Reuben, Israel's eldest son, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, by their polls, every male from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war;
So we know that houses go from father to son, and if your pastor-friend says that one of these lineages is really Mary’s, then he’s essentially just denied that the word of G-d is true. The house of David cannot be carried in Mary just as the Y-chromosome cannot be passed down to Mary.
Cross Mary off the list as a potential candidate for passing down the lineage.
According to this list, though, Joseph has two male parents. The writers of the NT made an error, but Jews do not believe that G-d can ever “get it wrong.” Clearly the NT is not the inspired word of G-d because of this obvious error.
But for the sake of argument, let’s pretend that only one of those lineages that are listed are truly the line of Joseph.
One lists Jeconia as an ancestor, and it says in the Tanakh that Jeconia was cursed and that his descendants can never rule. If Joseph is the descendant of Jeconia, then the messiahship can’t come though him.
28 Is this man Coniah a despised broken idol? is he a vessel wherein is no pleasure? wherefore are they cast out, he and his seed, and are cast into a land which they know not? 29 O earth, earth, earth, hear the word of the Lord. 30 Thus saith the Lord, Write ye this man childless, a man that shall not prosper in his days: for no man of his seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling any more in Judah.
(Your friend may have a counter argument to this, but don’t worry! We can address any counter arguments as they come up. –And no, none of his counter arguments are valid no matter how good and logical they may seem to be. )
The other lineage lists Nathan as the ancestor. Nathan was Solomon’s brother, and it states in the Tanakh that only Solomon would carry the line of the kingship. Nathan is not physically the same person as Solomon, so clearly Nathan’s line could not have produced an heir to the throne no matter how hard they tried.
1 Chronicles 22 9 Behold, a son shall be born to thee, who shall be a man of rest; and I will give him rest from all his enemies round about: for his name shall be Solomon, and I will give peace and quietness unto Israel in his days. 10 He shall build an house for my name; and he shall be my son, and I will be his father; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel for ever.
Finally, let’s just pretend for a moment that both of the given lineages were false and that Joseph was a valid candidate for the throne, and could produce a potential messiah. It doesn’t matter because he didn’t pass that house (or his Y-chromosome) down to Jesus. Clearly, Jesus cannot be the Jewish messiah.
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Barry
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Post by Barry on Oct 5, 2015 20:46:25 GMT -6
Most responses have been sadly the typical.. you need more faith just believe . I have to laugh at that response,.. some how dare you question it ! One person tried to actually take time and say it was Mary's lineage in Luke,..and or that Joseph was adopted thus had two lines,.. One great response was tho:"instead of questioning the names, what was the original message the authors were trying to convey?"... my response was :The authors tried to establish that Jsus was the legal heir to the Throne. EXCEPT that they filed the paper work with the wrong information , thus making the said paper work invalid. Have you ever gone to the Motor Vehicle Office to register a car and not have the proper paper work filed properly ? Guess what ? EVEN ,.. even IF you legally own the vehicle, with out the proper paper work filed properly... your NOT going to have that car registered...
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Barry
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Posts: 18
Gender (Optional): Male
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Post by Barry on Oct 11, 2015 10:02:18 GMT -6
Have any of you encountered this response ?
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Post by Sora on Oct 11, 2015 16:53:39 GMT -6
I've never heard that argument. Some of the laws of marriage that were discussed contradicted with what I think I know about the subject, but really we need a Rabbi to chime in.
Never-the-less, both genealogies are invalid.
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