John 3:16?

[Kevin]

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten Son, so that everyone believing in Him should not perish, but should have eternal life."

I have always wondered why within Christianity the whole believing concept is so important... Couldn't someone beleive in Christ but not really care about the works he did? And how much faith? Does it have to be as much as 100% or as low as 1% to have etneral life?

Could someone expand on this "having to believe" concept a little more? Thanks!

[Barry]

well if you believe and pay tithes,.. and pay to the building fund (for a building that has already been built,.. hmm) give an offering to the pastor because he needs a new sedan besides his maxed out suv,.. BUT ..BUT , if you dont PAY and well believe your gonna be in eternal trouble...just saying..

On a serious note for a group that stresses JUST believe , they do have a lot of "and" do this and that and don't do this and that, and then say YOU CAN'T go back under the "law".

[Kevin]

Thanks for your reply. And I agree with you. : )

[Sora]

From my personal experience in dabbling in Christianity and really getting to know some Christians, the "belief" factor was always really creepy to me. Some folks can completely abandon logic, doubt, or questioning authority of any kind in the name of blind faith. They may forego medical treatment on the grounds of faith in JC or blame illness on Satan because of their own "lack of faith".

I can't really address the original question because I don't fully understand the motivations behind the blind faith that Christians hold. I just wanted to add that this practice of unwavering faith completely confounds me. I hope we can get some more people on the forums talking about topics like this because it's important. It's important that we underscore the differences between Christianity and Judaism. We should be pointing out that in Judaism, people are encouraged to challenge the teachings, ask the tough questions, and apply common sense to it all. It's not faith that drives us; it's knowledge.

[Donna]

Oct 18, 2015 11:53:46 GMT -6 Sora said:

I just wanted to add that this practice of unwavering faith completely confounds me.

We should be pointing out that in Judaism, people are encouraged to challenge the teachings, ask the tough questions, and apply common sense to it all. It's not faith that drives us; it's knowledge.

I can only speak as a former Catholic. We weren't brought up to question or to read the Bible much and when we did it was only the "New Testament."  When your parents tell you the teachings of the faith from an early age, you tend to believe them. And the prevailing culture tends to be overwhelmingly Christian: TV, the movies, customs, etc. Even those who rebel against religion take a stand against Christian dogma and ignore Jewish teachings. 

Faith is emphasized as what G-d expects of us. Lack of faith is a moral fault. With the Catholics who start to question, maybe they tend to become lapsed Catholics, still believe in the trinity and faith but turn to all secular pursuits, rather than inquire into Protestant dogma.  They are even less likely to look into Judaism. That's what I did for too long.

What confuses me about Protestants is that they are encouraged to read and memorize Bible quotes, including the Tenakh (their OT). I know from Tovia Singer that Christian OTs have altered translations which fit Christian theology, but I would think familiarity with scripture, even the altered Tenakh, would cause more Protestants to notice discrepancies.

[Barry]

I think we still need to have that "blind faith" in HaShem... BUT that doesn't mean we can't question the who , what , why, when, where ? When someone has to hide the who, what, when , where, why , and how answers,... that is scary !
HaShem challenges us "come let us reason together"...
The 'church' doesn't like the logical approach, the let's sit down and dig deep into the scriptures. Why because yes it causes one to see errors. Take for example the genealogy of Jsus. On another thread I posed some questions,..I emailed several Pastors in regards to it. The responses were, Oh so your doubting now ? Oh where is your faith ? Just accept it as fact,...not one SOLID response !
BUT back to the original question,.. of how MUCH faith is required ,... didn't James write in James 2:19 "You believe that G-d is one;you do well. Even the demons believe-and shudder!"
And IF , Paul being who he said he was , a Jew , writing to Timothy also a Jew called the Torah "scripture. When he wrote to Timothy in 2nd Timothy 3:15-16 "...how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise...", "All Scripture is breathed out by G-d and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and training in righteousness"
As Rabbi Singer always suggests what does G-d have to say about this ? We need to search the Torah .....

[beachy]

I see parallels between Christian "faith" and the "faith" of ancient pagans (apparently the word meant "rustics" originally and later was connected to polytheism).  The pagans' gods aided them or punished them depending on how much was done to appease or anger them.  This is an underlying belief in Christianity, even if not openly discussed.  The god of the "old testament" is that type of god...he will punish you for sin against him and will bless you if you sacrifice to him-- so Christianity is convinced.  However, the Torah indicates that the Eternal gave His instruction for the good of His people always.  It is for their benefit that He warns of things to avoid (and the consequences if you don't) and the things His people are to do...not to gratify Himself, but to do good for the people.  You all probably have seen this as well.  So, isn't the Hebrew concept of "faith" more the "fullness of faith"?  In other words, you act upon what you've believed.  That's certainly consistent with the author to the Hebrews in chapter 11.  It is the substance of the thing you hope or believe for that counts, i.e., your action that results from your belief.

But to address John 3:16. I know what Christianity says is to be believed by this statement, but is that what is meant?  Is he saying we are to believe Yahushua is some type of human sacrifice who died on the cross to pay the price for sin and appease an angry god because that's what we all deserved and could expect without this intervention or is something else meant? After reading the sayings of Yahushua and Pahl's letters and studying Ramban and other sages, especially regarding reincarnation--or the soul having multiple opportunities, I'm convinced Yahushua is asking Nicodemus in this chapter of John to believe that the Eternal was providing for a 2nd Adam through the messiah ("You must be born again").  That Yahushua was the foundation of a new creation, the "first-born among many brothers," in which man is "born again," i.e., man's soul inherits a body/blood from the 2nd Adam and becomes a new creation.  Instead of inheriting a proclivity toward self-indulgence resulting in wrong choices from the 1st Adam (found in his blood passed on to all men), we can inherit a proclivity toward self-control and righteousness from the 2nd Adam (found in his blood passed on to those who inherit).  Note Nicodemus' diligence to be sure Yahushua's body was preserved while in the grave (John 19:39).

I realize this concept is probably unheard of and a shocker for many, but if you read the writings of Pahl with this in mind, you will begin to see that, just as he claimed, he was not teaching against the Torah or the Prophets.  He was an educated Pharisee and came to believe what Yahushua was claiming about resurrection...that the souls of all men will be judged at the "coming of messiah" as to whether or not they have affinity with the righteous soul of messiah (and if so, Pahl calls this a "better resurrection") in order to inherit a body/blood from Yahushua.  This is why he warned frequently for the converts to obey (not disobey) the commandments so that they be presented "blameless" at the "coming of messiah." (To be blameless is to only ever do wrong by accident..not deliberately.)  This was so that the Ruach hakodesh from the Eternal be able to do the same for those trusting as he did for Yahushua when he placed his soul into his body and resurrected him.  The one you are to believe in for all of this is the Eternal Elohim, His word being "powerful and sharper than any two-edged sword," dividing the soul of mobility and the soul of rationality (and bones and marrow) as He discerns the intents/thoughts of the mind.

Try reading about Yahushua with this concept in mind and his claims will begin to make sense.  And when he says no man can draw near to the Eternal but thru him, he is claiming that man will have access once again as Adam did before the transgression once man's soul is "tabernacled" in a body from Yahushua.  Whether or not all of this is correct, it IS what was being claimed.  We should at least discuss what these guys were actually talking about rather than stick to misguided Christian notions as the basis for discussion, true?  And then we can reach an honest conclusion about whether or not Yahushua is the Jewish messiah.




 

[mo875]

It is pretty clear by now that Christianity does not reflect what is the new testament let alone the tanakh. I agree that we should stop discussing the new testament with a christian filter that is based on lack of knowledge and understanding of the torah, prophets and pharisaic teachings. Rather it would be refreshing to have an honest discussion in which we allow Yahushua, Phal, and any other authors in the new testament to be Jewish rather the founders of christianity.

[elochimjakub]

I think the correct translation of John 3:16 is "God so love the world that he gave his only UNIQUE son" but then again the christian testament was written in Greek or Latin wasn't it and I am saying the correct translation based off of the Hebrew translation.

[devekuth]

"Believe" is a rather ambiguous word. If you click your heels and chant "I want to go home" (Wizard of OZ") and you go home...you believed. Basically, if you believe that Jesus died for your sins and you FEEL LIKE your sins are forgive....you are a believer. IF you asked to be healed and are not....you didn't really believe. IF you questions the tenants of your faith...you don't really believe. The idealization of "Blind Faith" is the only way Christianity has a chance of working. I'm not sure why you're asking this question. I'm sure what you know it means to believe HaShem...you do what He says to do.

[eldarkadie]

I am a christian Pastor, Not that I'm the sole enlightener on this topic, but I have a very interesting perspective. I have never taught that beleif is equitable to Salvation.beleif is a means to an end, beleif is what gets you started, 13 Principles of faith, 1. beleive that God Exists. you dont know God exists, but your internal spark does, but your external operator (lets call it) does not it must be convinced. Obedience confirms beleif, this is why not just Christianity but Judaism and "pre-judaism" Worship of God (noahidci) expressed adherence to certian restrictions that seperate people from them that are aware and them that are not. Does God work well with those that do not beleive in him? No, but we have seen examples in Torah, tanakh and new testamanet scriptures where God does work well with them that beleive in him. Having a healthy dose of beleif is beneficial towards faith. Now is it the end all be all unto salvation, hardly. but every baby must use thier legs to walk.

[Alberta]

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