A Sometimes Misunderstood Movement

[Tseruyah]

I recently ran into a Jewish man on FB who told me he did not support the Noachide movement because he thought that they did not have to give up JC to be a Noachide.  I did explain that it is incumbent upon a Noachide to indeed give up any loyalty or support to the church and embrace the Torah as it applies to the 70 Nations.  I also run into Jews in my own town whom I believe have a firm grasp on the dynamics of the Jewish world today, but who have never even HEARD of the Noachide movement and when I explain it to them, they are surprised.  Is this a common problem amongst the members of this proboard?  All stories and insights and speculations appreciated!

[Sora]

Yeah, I’m with you on this one. Noahidism requires the adherent to abandon idolatry, and authentic Noahides should not be worshipping JC. To be fair, I suppose it’s possible that there are some phonies out there who are supported by the Messianic movements… maybe this is what your FB friend encountered?


It’s such a shame that the Noahide movement doesn’t get the face-time it deserves. Christians, atheists and seculars have no idea that it even exists. I think if people took a look at it, they’d love it! It has simple tenants to follow that are flexible enough to fit lots of personalities.


To me, it’s really like a humanist movement, when you think about it.

[bill]

I know I have felt so much better since leaving christianity and embracing Noahidism. Learning the truth about scriptures being changed to fit the narrative of the christian bible really did it for me. Most christians will refuse to listen to this. It is really sad. I feel compelled to tell them the truth about their church.

[Tseruyah]

I do wonder if the majority of Noachides today came to it via messianic xtianity or from mainstream churches or were atheist. Knowing where the majority come from may be a clue to where to focus the greatest effort to educate and inform people about the Noachide movement.

[Kevin]

Before embracing Judaism as my faith, I attended a messianic congreagation. They wouldn't say cross, but instead "tree" and yeshua instead of "jesus." Everything about it seemed odd and just didn't make any sense. Then I found Tenak Talk and all the great Rabbis, and finally saw all of the scripture twisting that's found in the New Testament.

I have a good feeling that the Noahchide movement and the converts to Judaism will increase in the coming years. : )

[Sora]

Sept 8, 2015 17:10:29 GMT -6 Kevin said:

I have a good feeling that the Noahchide movement and the converts to Judaism will increase in the coming years. : )

G-d Willing!!

I'm really curious to know how it was that you came to find Tenak Talk?

[Kevin]

Hi Sora! Well I was looking up Judaism online, and found some videos by Skobac and Singer who were doing some videos with William from Tenak Talk. Dennis Prager also got me interested in Judaism through his talks, so he was an influence on me finding out about the Jewish faith.

I used to be a Christian when I was younger, but the concept that you had to believe in Jesus or else you'll go to hell NEVER made sense. I had a big problem with believing that, and deep down I always felt it was wrong. So growing up questioning Christianity led me to find Judaism and follow it as my faith.

So, all of those things led me to finding Tenak Talk, and I'm glad that it did. : )

[Donna]

Aug 31, 2015 18:21:44 GMT -6 Tseruyah said:

I also run into Jews in my own town whom I believe have a firm grasp on the dynamics of the Jewish world today, but who have never even HEARD of the Noachide movement and when I explain it to them, they are surprised.  Is this a common problem amongst the members of this proboard?  All stories and insights and speculations appreciated!

A friend who's an Orthodox Jew knows about Noachides, at least somewhat. He mentioned the seven Noachide laws in a discussion a group of us were having but only casually because we weren't getting into an intense religious discussion. Some day I want to ask him if he knows it's going on today and that increasing numbers of gentiles are embracing it.

I mentioned Noachides to a mixed group of Conservative and Reform Jews and none of them had ever heard of it.

I do wonder if the majority of Noachides today came to it via messianic xtianity or from mainstream churches or were atheist.

I came from Catholicism. Maybe that's why it took me so long to question, because reading the Bible, especially the "OT" wasn't encouraged. I was a lapsed Catholic for a long time because some of the beliefs, like original sin, didn't seem to make much sense. I still believed in God, prayed (and prayed to you-know-who too because I accepted the trinity), tried to lead a moral life and hoped that would be enough. I hadn't heard about the Noachide movement until I started looking into why Jews didn't believe in Jebus.

Kevin, I also think the Noachide movement and converts to Judaism will increase. The Internet broke the whole thing wide open. Rabbis started putting up sites to reach out to Jews who were in danger of being sucked in by the Jews for Jesus movements -- proselytizing Judaism to their own people. As a side effect, a lot of gentiles are visiting the sites, reading the arguments and learning the truth.

[Kevin]

Yes, I agree Donna! In my area I feel lost sometimes, because I feel like a lot of people don't have the information I do, and don't believe similiarly. I am the only one in my family who believes Hashem is the one true God, and doesnt belong in a trinity. Everyone in my family believe on Jesus. It's diffcult being in a.family that doesn't share my beliefs... I know they love me regardless though.

I am so blessed to have found all the Rabbis online and Tenak Talk. Feels nice to belong to this online community. : )

[papabear]

This issue has been covered at length by some of the more recent Rabbis who have found their ministry in teaching Noahides. The 7 laws of Noah, and the concept of the many types of Ger are found all over the Torah. In English translations, like Artscroll for instance, nearly every mention of Ger has been translated into prosleyte or convert. However in the Hebrew, and in the commentaries, this is very obviously an error. During the exile period, the Jews and the Ger have been separated by this and other things...cut off from one another if you will. Recently, this has changed with social media, the Internet, and Noahides and rabbis alike finding this message in the Torah again.

It isn't a matter of when the connection will happen and take off...it is here now! We are all beginning to understand the why and the how of it all, and it is an exciting time to be alive. Most Noahides seem to be coming out of Christianity, but there are certainly Messianics too.

The major issue is the disconnect between the 7 laws and and everything else in the Torah for Ger, and how that relates to the Jew/Ger relationship...and their relationship to the world. Noahidism has been labeled and to some extent forced onto a movement label, but it is not. It has always stood shoulder to shoulder with Judaism, wether veiled or not since the beginning. It isn't new. It isn't a movement. It is Torah.

We are brother, helper, supporter, protector to the Jew and Israel. So much to elaborate on in the future. Hope this helps!

[papabear]

To the original post:

Noahide is an adjective being forced into a role as a noun. It is not optimal, but everything is moving so fast that it has just "stuck". There are many Torah observant non-Jews that find it vulgar (rudimentary, not vile) but unfortunately it is a term that comes with the territory. So many Jews have no idea what it means or what it behind the whole thing. Why would they? We've been cut off from one another for millennia in many ways. So yes, it is common to be looked at sideways when it is brought up. Sometimes people equate it with a cult (on both sides), or a new movement, or an offshoot of something undesirable, etc. All simply from a lack of knowledge and not enough rabbis out there teaching it to both sides of the fence.

I encourage everyone not to be disappointed or discouraged if you come across lack of knowledge in this area, whether from Rabbis, Jews, or non-Jews. Rabbis have specialties. Jews have been cut off from their Gerim for centuries. Non-Jews have largely been in idolatry to fill the vacuum for that same period of time.

It is just know being rediscovered and there will be a huge learning curve for everyone. It isn't personal at all. It is just history.

[Tseruyah]

I am interested in what I have always heard described as a 'movement', that is, Noachidism, because it is truly still in its infancy and needs help growing.  One day on FB, I ran into someone who took exception to me calling her a B'nei Noach (which I meant with admiration) because she said she was a 'Ger' and that Gers followed many more than the Seven Laws of Noach, but did not elaborate.

Now, I am going to say this, and I hope sincerely that I am not offending anyone's sensibilities about being Noachide or Ger, however you define them for yourself, but the Torah in its entirely of 613 mitzvot and the Oral Torah which explains the mitzvot observance, are for Jews and I have always heard orthodox rabbis create a boundary between that for which the Jew is responsible and that for which the Nations are responsible and that it is not appropriate, if I may use that word, (there are probably better words to use but I am running out of time before shabbat begins for me) for the members of the 70 Nations to take upon themselves.  So, I am wondering why I am running into Gerim on Facebook who are expressing, in some strong language, that they are more than Noachide and they are here with us to stay and they won't let us forget it.

Perhaps the teachings of the rabbis are changing from what I have understood about Noachidism, which I have known about since about 2011 or so, and why there is adoption of so many "types" of Gerim seemingly outside of Noachidism.

[papabear]

Sept 18, 2015 17:39:16 GMT -6 Tseruyah said:

I am interested in what I have always heard described as a 'movement', that is, Noachidism, because it is truly still in its infancy and needs help growing.  One day on FB, I ran into someone who took exception to me calling her a B'nei Noach (which I meant with admiration) because she said she was a 'Ger' and that Gers followed many more than the Seven Laws of Noach, but did not elaborate.

Now, I am going to say this, and I hope sincerely that I am not offending anyone's sensibilities about being Noachide or Ger, however you define them for yourself, but the Torah in its entirely of 613 mitzvot and the Oral Torah which explains the mitzvot observance, are for Jews and I have always heard orthodox rabbis create a boundary between that for which the Jew is responsible and that for which the Nations are responsible and that it is not appropriate, if I may use that word, (there are probably better words to use but I am running out of time before shabbat begins for me) for the members of the 70 Nations to take upon themselves.  So, I am wondering why I am running into Gerim on Facebook who are expressing, in some strong language, that they are more than Noachide and they are here with us to stay and they won't let us forget it.

Perhaps the teachings of the rabbis are changing from what I have understood about Noachidism, which I have known about since about 2011 or so, and why there is adoption of so many "types" of Gerim seemingly outside of Noachidism.

First of all, great questions! And thank you for responding to reaction you got on here with respect and a sincere statement. It doesn't happen enough these days, and really should, particularly with this conversation.

[papabear]

Where to start? I guess with the first "stated" misconception on the issue. I say "stated", because people say it without really thinking about it...Jews and non-Jews alike. Noachidism (for lack of a common term, or because of one), is not in its infancy. Quite the contrary. In fact it is older than Judaism. All the generations prior to the mountain, were under Noah's covenant with G-d, which the Torah says was for all generations. In fact ever human is B'nei Noach, so I always roll my eyes when someone is offended by that. I do understand why non-Jews see it as a term used to diminish their blessing, because it is never said to them in the context that it applies to all of us. It is said in a way that they often feel reduces their significance in the world, and the one to come. Most people have no intention to do this, but it often happens anyway.

The term Noachide does not appear in the Torah, but Ger, in many forms does. I think that is part of the problem. So why does this matter? Well, the term Ger in the Torah means many different things depending on the passage it is found. Not a hidden one mind you, but a very specific one, and each one implies a different relationship to the Jews, and the condition of that person's place in the world. Most people are not aware of this, particularly those that read the Torah in something besides Hebrew. Ger is most often "translated" in English for instance, as convert. And on rare occasions it is correct. But in most it is not. That is a travesty for everyone!!!! The story of the Gerim has been sub planted by bad translation, and it is a very important story, not just in the Tanach, but in all history since. There are certainly different levels of spirituality in Gerim, just like there are with Jews. does that change their label? Does it matter?

Let's take Abraham for instance. Gerim. No Torah, at least not in the sense we say today. Yet he was so righteous, his blessing is unequaled among men. Circumcision is a mitzvot of the 613, and not of the 7, and yet given to a non-Jew to perform. Where did Abraham get the wisdom to know how to be so righteous, if he only had the 7 laws and nothing else? Why was he given the brit if circumcision as just a Noachide? Was there more than the 7 laws available to him? The sages sure thought so. The Torah of Shem and Ever and the Sefer Raziel. That's some pretty "advanced" stuff for a Ger. and circumcision is certainly a mitzvot beyond the 7. So does that make it 8 now? Is there more laws than the 7 for the Ger? Certainly not, but perhaps the lesson is that assuming more out of a desire to honor HaShem, than what is REQUIRED is not only permitted, but designed to receive blessing. How else do we reconcile this? I'm not sure I know, but it definitely hangs in the air.

Next, where are the 7 laws of Noah in the Written Torah? Spelled out so that a Noachide may learn and understand them? Isn't an understanding of the Oral Torah required for this? How is that possible if it is forbidden? Perhaps there are levels of wisdom for Ger, just like for Jews? What is the standard for study of the Kaballah? Does it require anything beyond being Jewish? Is its wisdom unlocked by certain preparation of a Jew? Can any Jew be a rabbi? There are always distinctions for and in wisdom. It's the way G-d made it.

And last for tonight, since we know it isn't new, and a cursory study of the Tanach in Hebrew reveals the story of the Ger, in all their forms, then the question remains...why does it seem new today. The simple answer is that the exile isn't just that of the tribes, but also of the Gerim at their gates. It has affected everyone for over two millennia. Jew and the Ger, once inseparable by holy bonds, now finding one another again. We lost our light, and you lost your brothers. It is incumbent upon us to make sure the wound heals.

Shalom

[papabear]

[papabear]

What or who is the Noachide on their way to conversion? Are they just a Noachide? Once they convert are they still a convert, or are they a Jew? If they are still a convert, are you robbing them of their blessing? Then are they still a Noachide?

Labels mean nothing, because I am still who I am if someone labels me or doesn't. Labels mean everything as well, because even though I remain who I am, my label affects how others will view me, interact with me, and respect me.

Particularly with Jews, with whom my future inevitably lays.

[bill]

papabear, once you complete the conversion process you are a Jew like anyone else.

[papabear]

Sept 20, 2015 19:23:35 GMT -6 bill said:

papabear, once you complete the conversion process you are a Jew like anyone else.

Yes Bill, you are right. To refer to a converted person as anything other than a Jew is wrong and robs them of their blessing. So is it possible that referring to a person who is in the process of converting, or intending to convert, or working on it but not sure, as a Noahide wrong as well? They are certainly involved beyond the 7 laws at that point right? So are they at risk of the Hand of Heaven for doing this since they aren't Jews yet? Are they more than a Noahide?

See my point? There is obviously a distinction to be made.

Devarim 31:10-13 which we read recently shows the halacha about Ger Toshav, and how it is supposed to work. But without the tribes in their place, it is said this doesn't work anymore. This is where the real issue is at.

[papabear]

Going a little further...

It isn't a fight. No one should be arguing whether or not a Noahide or Ger has the right to exist. We know without a doubt that they both do, have, and always will. This all more or less nuance in labels. Granted those labels have direct meaning to people's interactions, but if you choose not to call me Eric...it is still my name.

Much of this is for the individual. Personally where I feel it is important, is in connecting with Jews. So much spiritual wisdom and work on connecting with HaShem...so much Torah wisdom...so much history of overcoming odds...on and on.

The light is so bright, and yet just out of reach for a guy like me. And that is where I am coming from. Desire for G-d.

[Tseruyah]

I must very respectfully disagree with you, Eric, in that the Noachide MOVEMENT looks, to most Jews aware of it or involved in it, to be in its infancy. The definition of and the identification of a Noachide has certainly been around (well, obviously so) since Noach's time, but any organized, worldwide connection of people associated with the identity and terminology and similar goals has really only been abundantly fruitful in the Age of the Internet and largely through the outreach efforts of rabbis who are filling the need for leadership and their non-Jewish peers and students who have stepped forward to nurture it. We do not see a history of Noachide congregations written about in any other age, yet we now have them, like seeds growing and maturing. That is what I meant by the term "infancy", since there is so much further to go with the movement (give or take to the sum of 9 billion, less 14 million). Indeed, I believe this is a sign of the approaching Age of Moschiach.

[Tseruyah]

My original post included the question of why am I running into self-described gerim who are sounding almost defiant in their presence, because I do not understand where the attitude is coming from. I am sure I never meant to offend them, but I nevertheless get the sense that NOT being called Ger by me but being called B'nei Noach was a trifle insulting to them. I am trying to become familiar with all the proper designations and not finding it easy.

Am I correct in thinking that it is not a matter of difference in beliefs or understanding as it is a matter of level of practice/observance?  Noachides are observing their seven plus one (not 8) and that gerim (the non-convert to Judaism types) are observing whatever they please of the 613, but do not wish to be Jewish through halachic conversion?

[papabear]

Sept 24, 2015 19:50:50 GMT -6 Tseruyah said:

I must very respectfully disagree with you, Eric, in that the Noachide MOVEMENT looks, to most Jews aware of it or involved in it, to be in its infancy. The definition of and the identification of a Noachide has certainly been around (well, obviously so) since Noach's time, but any organized, worldwide connection of people associated with the identity and terminology and similar goals has really only been abundantly fruitful in the Age of the Internet and largely through the outreach efforts of rabbis who are filling the need for leadership and their non-Jewish peers and students who have stepped forward to nurture it. We do not see a history of Noachide congregations written about in any other age, yet we now have them, like seeds growing and maturing. That is what I meant by the term "infancy", since there is so much further to go with the movement (give or take to the sum of 9 billion, less 14 million). Indeed, I believe this is a sign of the approaching Age of Moschiach.

Ok, I understand what you mean. Yes, it is certainly a movement in that people are moving out of something else and into Noachidism. And it has been a few millennia since they existed, but the certainly did in the promised land following the Exodus. Those stories are in the Torah (The World of the Ger is a great place to start on that if you are interested). At any rate I completely understand your point now.

[papabear]

Sept 24, 2015 20:32:32 GMT -6 Tseruyah said:

My original post included the question of why am I running into self-described gerim who are sounding almost defiant in their presence, because I do not understand where the attitude is coming from. I am sure I never meant to offend them, but I nevertheless get the sense that NOT being called Ger by me but being called B'nei Noach was a trifle insulting to them. I am trying to become familiar with all the proper designations and not finding it easy.

Am I correct in thinking that it is not a matter of difference in beliefs or understanding as it is a matter of level of practice/observance?  Noachides are observing their seven plus one (not 8) and that gerim (the non-convert to Judaism types) are observing whatever they please of the 613, but do not wish to be Jewish through halachic conversion?

I think you are completely on the right track with this. I, like you don't understand people being offended by it, like I stated above. It just seems silly to me. The only thing I can assume, walking in that world, is an overwhelming sense of frustration some people have...that the very people who are supposed to be the experts (the Jews) and teach them, don't know how, where to begin, or what they are supposed to be doing. It's is pretty simple to me...there weren't many of us around...so why would anyone have spent time on this prior to now? It is just history, and that is benign. I just don't think everyone "gets" that.

Full disclosure, I don't personally get the wanting to be Jewish thing...but G-d hasn't put that desire in my heart. He made me what I am, and what I am is just fine. We are all His children and have a very important role in things. I think a lot of people go the conversion route who shouldn't because the don't understand that with some distinctions and avoiding trying to literally act Jewish, you can be much more than an observer of the 7 laws and live a very spiritual life, support the Jewish community, and help repair the world. There are some who knock it out of the park, and they are truly a remarkable people. B"H!

For the rest of us, it is really a matter of discovering who G-d made you to be, and that Noachide, Ger, Convert, or Jew is ok. Everyone is at a different place, and we should all be helping each other...the way it was designed.

This is a very exciting time indeed! I pray that everyone has the patience and wisdom to see this through, because at the end of it is Geulah.

[Tseruyah]

Sept 30, 2015 12:54:42 GMT -6 papabear said:

Sept 24, 2015 19:50:50 GMT -6 Tseruyah said:

I must very respectfully disagree with you, Eric, in that the Noachide MOVEMENT looks, to most Jews aware of it or involved in it, to be in its infancy. The definition of and the identification of a Noachide has certainly been around (well, obviously so) since Noach's time, but any organized, worldwide connection of people associated with the identity and terminology and similar goals has really only been abundantly fruitful in the Age of the Internet and largely through the outreach efforts of rabbis who are filling the need for leadership and their non-Jewish peers and students who have stepped forward to nurture it. We do not see a history of Noachide congregations written about in any other age, yet we now have them, like seeds growing and maturing. That is what I meant by the term "infancy", since there is so much further to go with the movement (give or take to the sum of 9 billion, less 14 million). Indeed, I believe this is a sign of the approaching Age of Moschiach.

Ok, I understand what you mean. Yes, it is certainly a movement in that people are moving out of something else and into Noachidism. And it has been a few millennia since they existed, but the certainly did in the promised land following the Exodus. Those stories are in the Torah (The World of the Ger is a great place to start on that if you are interested). At any rate I completely understand your point now.

I recall a teaching that addressed the people we call ger or Noachide today, those people being referred to as people for whom the Torah is written on their hearts, meaning, I think, that the innate spiritual fundamentals of Torah guide these people like a spiritual compass built into them.  I think these sorts of people have always existed and humanity has always needed them to act on their convictions.  Some of these people are immersed in other religions but their spiritual light from Torah shines despite it.